Oathbringer discussion (SPOILERS for everything so far)

A place to do whatever, out of character.

Postby Skullduggery » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:31 am

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Postby Mac » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:43 am

Trying to keep my response mostly positive:

Um. It finished stronger than it began. Cool cinematics at the end with everyone Radiating like a mother to do all the stuff.

...That might be it.

Okay I have one catty thing to say and then I am done.

I wish I had made a list of every Sanderfan on the Shard or Reddit who had screamed insults at me and called me stupid for daring to question the notion that all truthwatchers see the future. The list, however, would have been rather exhaustive.

Okay I'm good now. No more cattiness.
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Postby Mac » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:00 pm

Any thoughts/theories on how Kaladin was able to get a message from a print from the Court of Gods?

Per WoB which I will try to find, if someone has at least the Third Heightening, they have a chance to commune with Endowment while painting something, and then that scrap of whatever imparted from Endowment can speak to the Returned.

Which... would mean Endowment always planned for this specific painting to get to Kaladin, right? And that somehow he is enough like a Returned to pick up the message?

I'm fuzzy on the mechanics.

Ah, I have found actually two comments, so this one link should take you to them both.
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Postby Herowannabe » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:05 am

IIRC in text it says that people with a little investiture will see what they need to see in the painting, which is why Kaladin saw Dalinar and the 9 shadows while Lightsong saw Nightblood. That would make sense with the bit of soul being imparted by the artist.
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Postby Mac » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:46 am

I don't think they were the exact same painting, do you have reason to suspect they were?


...a small one painted from thick strokes of oil. White and red, with lines of black.

I'm gonna check the Battle of Twilight Falls again, but I'm pretty sure that was described as entirely red, with grey tinges to some of the faces it would take the Third Heightening to discern, and a single line of black representing Nightblood. On balance, I don't think it's meant to be the same painting.

This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply takena knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes.

Hrm. Though the viewer's interpretation is very different, this could be seen as the same way Lightsong saw a genius of simplicity in the Battle of Twilight Falls... okay, I'm starting to lose my conviction that they aren't the same painting.

Painted by Nenefra, tucking that away in my back pocket...

wedges of paint

Yeah the Battle of Twilight Falls was described as mostly triangles...

...each figure just a couple of triangular strokes

Hrm, though in general it is depicted as being almost entirely red; there's no mention of white at all, just some grey tinge in many faces, and over and over it's described as incredibly red, red in a variety of shades.

I dunno. On some level it does feel like he's giving us a few clues to suggest that they might actually be the same painting... but on another level it feels like he's flat-out saying it definitely isn't. Given the WoB, I'm far less certain than I once was, but I'm still pretty sure these are not the same painting.

And in that case, why didn't Shallan see anything? Why not any other Returned? Why not all of Lightsong's Priests with some Breath? No painter has ever had another painter critique his work? Surely someone at the Third Heightening has more Investiture than a Surgebinder at the Third Ideal who hasn't had Stormlight in his system for days or weeks. Lightsong has an entire cadre of Awakeners, ones powerful enough to Break a lifeless. None of them ever happen to glance at a few of his paintings? Like, ever? Just once, enough for people to realize, hey wait, I'm also seeing visions the way we expect Gods to? And don't tell me they see them but don't realize they're visions; Kaladin has no concept of the idea that paintings might spark visions and he still immediately recognizes that he just saw the future.

You say IIRC, but do you remember where in the text it says that? From the thing I posted, the WoB and the annotation, that does not appear to be how it works. He's pretty clear that when the painting is made, someone with a strong enough connection to "The Tones" (presumably Edgli) will paint a specific vision into any given work, a vision which the Returned are then able to access.

Personally I suspect that Kaladin's experience with the orb in the Riino lighthouse was what primed him to get a future vision, but that still means not only that this vision was always intended to be seen by him on this street in Celebrant, but that Edgli herself deliberately placed it in a painting, knowing or at least hoping it would one day make it to the street of another planet outside of the physical realm so some random guy could get a vision about something with a tenuous connection to Nalthis at best. Which seems... odd.

EDIT: Then again, Hoid is asking the different Shards for help. Perhaps this is Endowment's way of helping.

Relevant passages:

So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

A well-crafted piece of art, made by a person channeling the Tones and connected to them via Breath, can speak to a Returned.

Instead, Lightsong is seeing an image of a previous war,

Relevant because the piece was called the Battle of Twilight Falls, and Lightsong specifically saw the Battle of Twilight Falls. It does not appear to be that certain paintings will just show you whatever vision is relevant at the time.
Last edited by Mac on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mac » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:46 pm

Am I the only person who finds it odd that Ashspren have bones? They are literally made of ash, they are clearly not following biology. Even if one supposes that they have bones because people think of beings as having bones, Kaladin literally recognizes them as correct representations of actual bone. I feel like there's a disconnect there; anyone with enough knowledge of anatomy to contribute to them having life-like bones would prolly reject the idea of ash being otherwise able to replace organs and muscle and veins and blood and such.
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Postby Mac » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:46 pm

Are the voidspren one of the nine secret societies?
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Postby Skullduggery » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:36 am

ARE any of you on the 17 th shard discord server?
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Postby Kurkistan » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:37 am

I am, yeah. Not very active there, though.
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Postby Claincy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:19 pm

I am, I don't talk a ton on that server at the moment, some, just not tons. But I usually do have discord open.
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