Deader Threader

A place to do whatever, out of character.
Mac
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:07 am
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Mac » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:35 am

Marsh's experience aside, the fact remains that the difference between Sazed and "literally any other feruchemist" is negligible.

Also, recall Vin and Hammond talking. There's no known real counter to atium. There's "try to kill them when they're not burning" and "try to last long enough and hope they only have a few seconds' worth" and that's it. There are some things that no amount of training can compensate for. Bleeder killed a room filled with highly-trained armed guards, maybe some of them allomancers or feruchemists, all with just steel, which she'd had a matter of days. (Though, granted, maybe practiced with earlier in her centuries of life?) It's not axiomatic that "a better trained warrior" would have some magic counter to steelrunning; what would that even be? I cannot think of a counter. Like with atium, the solution is "be super-prepared, have five people you don't especially like attack him first, and hope his reserves run out before the sixth guy".

@Inquisitors having feruchemy: I'm not sure that we know "a lot of them" had healing during Final Empire. We only see two or three of them heal. And there's no reason to assume they were fresh spikes; WoB is that one spike for feruchemical gold would be passed from "generation" to generation. I don't personally see a body of evidence to support the idea that they were getting fresh spikes. After all, as Sazed tells us, they were able to slip Tindwyl into the Breeding program, even with all her metalminds, expressly because the Ministry was no longer looking for feruchemists. That seems like pretty solid evidence that the Ministry did, in fact, believe it to be gone; I see a lot of people absolutely certain that it was an open secret, and I would need to see some proof as compelling as Tindwyl's simple infiltration to counter the evidence in the book that the Ministry honestly believed feruchemy had been totally wiped out. If they knew it still existed, how did they not follow Tindwyl out from the Breeding Program straight to the Synod?

@Inquisatium: Eh. I'm not positive I buy that they all had atium. How many times did Inquisitors fight Mistborn, after all? They only needed a few. Most Mistborn are Noble, it's only skaa mistborn who would be facing the Inquisition, and they prolly don't have much atium, either. And we do know that the Inquisitors only had so many spikes; 11 was the max. Many only had 9. 8 are taken up with the basic metals. So that's one additional spike for most of them, for atium or health. Even if they had both, and 11 spikes, that's one additional spike for doubled bronze (to sense Mistings) steel, and iron (if that's what helps with Inquisivision, and also because otherwise they're just plain significantly worse than Mistborn). So, even both burning atium, which is a wash, the Inquisitor would simply lose to any given Mistborn, who has iron, steel and pewter stronger than their hemalurgically stolen power. I'm leery of how many Inquisitor questions get wall-papered over with "well they prolly just had more spikes."

@Sazed's Speed
Huh. That is an odd discrepancy. In the next book, he has weeks of speed stored up. Is it possible he didn't have all of his steelminds at hand in Final Empire? He could hardly have stored that much in barely a year between books. Still, you only need, at most, two minutes, and I'm not actually sure you need to go much faster than a sprinting thug. Keep in mind, steel is basically a personal bendalloy bubble. You react in bullet-time. However fast a thug can sprint down a straight road, it couldn't make a sandwich or write a note at super-speeds. Steel can. Fighting, in a room, or even in an arena, is significantly different, and requires you to see your surroundings and react, something feruchemical steel does and allomantic pewter doesn't do to any significant degree. If Sazed has two hours of "sprinting" speed, I feel like that's prolly at least an hour at "fast enough to kill an atium-pewter person" speed. Maybe half an hour. Again, he only needs three minutes, max, so that's ten Inquisitors.

I've already addressed the odds that an Inquisitor would be out of reach by the time a Feruchemist learned he needed to kill him.

Not sure I agree that Sazed is more likely to store while out in the field; being the master of a household staff in the Final Empire, I would expect he'd have more opportunity to store, and less opportunity to use. Now that he's constantly walking from village to village, spending every day trying to teach people how to write, how to farm, and with no more reason to hide his powers... after all, he uses pewter to dig the grave that time, something he'd never have bothered doing when there was still the Steel Ministry. I expect that in the year, there would be much less opportunity to easily store, and much greater temptation to use up tiny bits here and there.

I can buy someone thinking "okay, I'll need this, i have to make a point of storing," but that's the opposite of what he's thinking. The Final Empire has collapsed. There is no more Steel Ministry, and the Synod has come out of hiding. Sazed is the one rebel who DOESN'T think the worst is over, and even he has nothing more than a nagging suspicion, which he barely begins to acknowledge to himself by the time he runs across a Dominance to get to Vin. If Sazed thought there was tragedy yet to come, I could see your point, but he expressly doesn't.
Sir Jerric
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:08 am
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Sir Jerric » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:06 am

The trouble with having been a Mistborn fan for eight years is that you lose track of sources. I found the "Seekers are favored for making Inquisitors" bit, but as for double Iron . . . :oops: . . .

Here are some of the interesting sources that I did find in my wanderings.
- Final Empire chapter 38 -- Kar the Inquisitor was given a better command of Allomancy.
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
. . . . He couldn’t see anymore, not as he once had, but he had been given something better. A command of Allomancy so subtle, so detailed, that he could make out the world around him with startling accuracy.

Almost everything had metal in it—water, stone, glass…even human bodies. These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy—indeed, most Allomancers couldn’t even sense them.

With his Inquisitor’s eyes, however, Kar could see the ironlines of these things—the blue threads were fine, nearly invisible, but they outlined the world for him. The obligators before him were a shuffling mass of blues, their emotions—discomfort, anger, and fear—showing in their postures. . . . .
- HoA Prologue -- Inquisitor sight has lines (plural) outlining objects.
- HoA Epigraphs on Chapter 37, 45, & 73 -- Doubling powers, most Inquisitors are Mistings
- Report from DragonCon 2012: Particularly, the "soul interference".
- Browsing the hemalurgy tag on theoryland, there were several references to Inquisitors: Not all the same sets of spikes, not all had fGold, not all had Atium.
Mac wrote:What, specifically and exactly, is the model you're talking about?
Since you asked about starting again, allow me to try. Because I like the Metalic Arts, and because I disliked some of the explanations in the MAG rules, I read through the first four Mistborn novels twice, trying to pick up as much magical canon as possible. I will be adding the fifth and sixth to this roster as soon as is convenient.

Since this thread was chattering about the operation of metal lines, I thought I'd write out the rules of thumb that I've collected for Narrating Iron and Steel Allomancy. Collectively, this forms a behavior model. In any given scene in a Mistborn novel, one should be able to use the rules of the model to predict the description of the lines and their properties. Any canon material that does not match the predictions of the model is evidence that the model is incorrect and needs to be re-evaluated.
Sir Jerric's Metal Lines Behavior Model, Ver. 0.2.1 wrote: - Thicker is brighter by virtue of a greater density of 'sub-lines'.
- Ironsight works by seeing the sub-lines that connect to practically everything.
- The sub-lines of metals are collapsed into a dense thread that is visible to anyone burning Iron or Steel.

- All lines and sub-lines get brighter with flaring your metal.
- All lines and sub-lines get fainter with distance.
- All lines and sub-lines get fainter when they intersect with / are obscured by any solid object.
- The lines of embedded and swallowed metals are made invisible by "soul interference" until a threshold of power/skill is exceeded.
- I have not seen a reference to Invested metal having a faint line as compared to Uninvested metal of the same form.

- Brighter lines apply more force.
- Force can be applied to sub-lines (i.e. Kelsier's spinning bars trick).
- One can apply force toward a direction, even if there are no visible lines.
- Force applied can be reduced (i.e. Zane's levitation, Wax's shotgun push).
As a brief aside, in collecting this data, I have concluded that Allomancy was still in flux during the writing of Well of Ascension. The Final Empire has several unique descriptions of the magical process that were cut from future books; one of which I rather liked, but I also think I understand why it vanished.

Anyway, Vin, coin, Lurcher + Shield: Well of Ascension chapter 2
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
The Lurcher, of course, Pulled them toward him instead. They hit the shield and bounced free. And as they sprayed into the air, Vin carefully Pushed one so it fell behind him.

The man lowered his shield, unaware of the coin Vin had manipulated. Vin Pulled, whipping the single coin directly toward her—and into the back of the Lurcher’s chest. He fell without a sound.
Pulling on an object behind a opponent is a very common trick in the series. Kelsier did it in book one, chapter five.
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
He Pulled on the ingot—ripping it out of the dying man’s back. . . .
. . . . .
Kelsier spun, burning iron then steel to send the ingot soaring toward the final two men. They stepped out of the way, but Kelsier tugged on the ingot, dropping it to the ground directly in front of them. The men regarded it warily, distracted as Kelsier ran and jumped, Steelpushing himself against the ingot and flipping over the men’s heads. The hazekillers cursed, spinning. As Kelsier landed, he Pulled the ingot again, bringing it up to smash into a man’s skull from behind.

The hazekiller fell silently. The ingot flipped a few times in the darkness, and Kelsier snatched it from the air, its cool surface slick with blood.
My model does not claim that an object's line vanishes when it is obscured by a person. It vanishes when it is inside a person, which that handy report says should be called "soul interference". I agree with the two of you, by the way. This "oversight" is an example of the flux in Allomantic behavior, since so much emphasis is placed on it elsewhere.

For something that does get stuck in a more recent book, here is an example of "soul interference" in action: Alloy of Law, chapter 19
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
Shooting Miles was, of course, useless. The man could survive a dynamite explosion at close range. He could take a few shotgun blasts.

But the shots caused the Coinshot to Push himself away in alarm. They also left Miles sprayed with metal. Wax increased his weight and Pushed, though he found it hard to get a purchase on the birdshot. Any metal that pierced a person’s body or touched his blood was very difficult to affect with Allomancy.

Fortunately, Miles’s body obliged him by healing itself and spitting out the birdshot. In the instant before it could drop to the floor, Wax’s Push suddenly found anchors, and he threw Miles across the room and into the wall.
I note that Wax "found it hard to get a purchase", not that the lines vanished. This matches the behavior in our Shadows of Self example. (I am searching the audio book for the scene in question. I think I'm close, but haven't got it yet.)

What I did find (in what I think is chapter 21) was TenSoon pulling a spike from a chimera and Wax checks the line and it is "duller than it should have been. Hemalurgy." Missed that on the first pass. Looks like I do have a counter-point to one of my rules above. But now we must wonder, is that only a Hemalurgic side-effect? This same attribute would apply to TenSoon's blessings in the scene I haven't found yet, so that makes two samples.

However, we also have the bracers that Wax pushed in the constabulary. Did he push them for dramatic effect after the line had told him otherwise? Was it a little emotional venting? Or did he have to push them to check the Feruchemical charge, indicating that Hemalurgy is a unique dulling of the line?
Mac wrote:Can you see how someone could read that, and how it looks like you're saying, "Based on my evidence, this seems conclusive", more than it does, "I'm kicking around a theory, trying to decide what I think is correct."
Yes. I meant for you to get more of the first reading than the second. I'm not uncertain or trying to decide what is correct. I have a system, I believe it is correct, and I make regular use of it while Narrating games. But I also have an open mind. I can be incorrect. If you can find or think you remember some examples that conflict with my model's representation, I will look them up and consider them. I can and will change the model when I find contradictions.

You have already provided incentive to triple-check the latest novel, as it seems there is a formerly undefined control phenomenon. Thank you.
Mac
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:07 am
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Mac » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:48 am

Three things:

1. When you said Ironsight, did you mean what I call Inquisivision? Or are you talking about just the way Wax an Ranette see the world?

2. Actual points 2 and 3 sorta conflate... I don't actually agree with everything in your model, but there's only one point where I (maybe) think it's contradicted. The rest of it is either correct (I believe) or conjecture which is viable, I just don't necessarily concur.

It does seem our sticking point is this "threshold" thing. Before we continue, I wanted to confirm something. I got the impression that you were saying before that "soul interference" is binary. If a piece of metal is "soul interfered" and you lack the power/skill, you cannot see a line, period. The instant you get the power/skill, it's like a light switch. The line is instantly there, full power, no intermediary step. Do you still think this is true?

EDIT: Er, I guess I should have said: Is this an accurate interpretation of your position?
Sir Jerric
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:08 am
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Sir Jerric » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:49 pm

1) The former. Despite my continued lack of solid evidence, I still prefer to think of Inquisitor vision as the Iron / Steel equivalent of piercing-tier Bronze. So ironsight is the way anyone with Iron sees, but the Inquisitors are better at it.

2) Yes, I have been saying that overcoming "soul interference" is binary. The line instantly shows up in the FE ch38, and that has been the only canon source that I knew of. I hesitate to use the term "full power" however, since once it "turns on", it would still be subject to the other control phenomena.

Before you reply to that, please note that I am now using past tense about that argument. ;)

I said last time that I was hunting for the source material in Shadows of Self. I hope you will forgive any transcription errors of spelling and punctuation.
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
Shadows of Self, chapter 7 wrote: A moment later, the door into their observation chamber was flung open, pushed by Waxillium as he approached. Couldn't the man be bothered to lift a hand from time to time? He strode in, tailed by Wayne, who was for some reason wearing Constable Terry's hat.

Waxillium looked down at the captive. He narrowed his eyes, then glanced at the bracers on the table nearby. One jumped, then fell off the table, pushed by his unseen Allomantic ability. He grunted. "Those aren't metalminds. This man is a decoy. You've been duped."
. . . .
"How can you be so sure?" Marasi said.

"It takes more effort to push on real metalminds," Waxillium said, pointing.
Shadows of Self, chapter 20 wrote: Wax held very still in the darkness. He flared his steel, seeking guidance from that comfortable fire inside of him. The blue lines pointed exclusively behind him. Those pointed toward the hidden doorway and the nails in the wall. There was nothing else.

Except . . . Could he just barely make something out? Two faint lines, tiny as the threads of a spider web. He flared his metal, straining, pushing. The lines quivered in the darkness. Then they were gone.

Wax whipped out his Sterrion and pointed it down the corridor away from the lines and fired three times in quick succession. The flash of gunpowder lit the room like lightning as he leveled his other gun toward the blue lines and the source of the sound. In those flashes, he made out something in the darkness, crouching nearby. It was inhuman, with bestial eyes and stark white teeth.

Rust and Ruin. Fingers sweaty on his gun, Wax backed away from the thing, ready to fire. He didn't pull the trigger. You didn't shoot something for talking to you.
Shadows of Self, chapter 21 wrote: TenSoon came up with a thin piece of metal, silvery and perhaps as long as a finger. Did it have a red cast to it, or was that just the blood? He used steel sight and found that while he could see the spike, the line was duller than it should have been. Hemalurgy.
In chapter 7, we are unfortunately in Marasi's POV, so we don't get to see any lines. All we have is Wax's statement that he pushed the bracer to test the effort required. I am willing to believe that means that the line itself told him nothing about its potential Feruchemical charge.

It can also be argued that he pushed it for effect, or to vent. He has an audience, and he is in a bit of a temper. You can see that in how he pushes the door open and his curt remarks. He may have pushed it to give the constables something more concrete than his opinion of the quality of an invisible line.

In chapter 20, there are a few interesting points. The thinness of the lines leaves me concluding that they are either small spikes (like the one in the next quote, and the koloss spikes are labeled small in their first appearance) or that "soul interference" is not binary, and it is throttling the size of these lines. This later theory would imply that "soul interference" acts as a throttle valve capable of completely shutting, but that sufficient power/skill can pry the valve open.

Under this paradigm, Wax's flared steel is just reaching the level of overcoming TenSoon's "soul interference", but the effort required to flare at that level makes it unstable, and the lines vanish again. Combined with Alloy ch19, that suggests(but does not guarantee) that TenSoon(third gen. kandra) has a greater measure of internal Investiture than Miles (a Twinborn) based on that one report on comparative difficulty to push/pull.

In point of fact, this scene and that report are the main reasons I am withdrawing the "binary behavior" rule. The report implies that there are several (infinite) thresholds depending on the subject's internal Investiture. Combined with the "thinner than it probably should be" lines that vanish despite no change in distance, there seems to be cause for believing that FE ch38 appears binary because the change in power by using the mists is overkill for the threshold involved.

As for the dimness of TenSoon's spike lines, Chapter 21 makes that clear cut. Hemalurgy dims the Allomantic lines, unlike the other available mode of Investing metal. If Feruchemy dims lines, then the "Hemalurgy" conclusion does not have to be a given, nor would the dimming be so remarkable.

Then again, why not assume that this dim line pointing at a spike pulled from a monster means a Hemalurgic charge? Dim lines might be a normal thing to check for Investiture in metalminds; that could be why he bothered to check in the first place. If lines don't normally dim in Wax's experience, why would he think to check them?

I'm going to be very attentive to see if there are any described lines associated with metalminds, because this is still an open question.
Mac
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:07 am
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Mac » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:43 am

1. Interesting that you bring up bronze. In the first book, Kelsier was adamant that it was binary. It hides you, or it doesn't. It protects from Soothing, or it doesn't. Vin proved neither were true. The first time she pierced copper, to save Elend, the pulses were far weaker than they should have been. When she's burning copper, she still feels the Lord Ruler's Soothing, just weaker. We now know that copper and bronze are simply a matter of relative power. Your ability to sense pulses is lowered by the power of someone else's copper. If you're a bit more powerful, that means you sense as though you had very weak bronze, you hear very weak pulses. If you're like Vin with about twice as much bronze as anyone, you hear through clouds as though there wasn't one.

2. Wax Pushing on the bracers: Third possible reason; confirmation. "This line looks quite as bright as I might expect, but there's no harm in double-checking with an actual Push."

The only main objection I had was the idea that "soul interference" is binary. As I've said, I don't necessarily buy some of your conjecture for the rest of it, but it's all perfectly viable. "Soul interference" being binary was the only point where I thought you were directly contradicting the books.
PhantomMonstrosity
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:48 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by PhantomMonstrosity » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:21 pm

Mac wrote: @Inquisitors having feruchemy: I'm not sure that we know "a lot of them" had healing during Final Empire.
Hero of ages
Spikes made from other metals steal Feruchemical abilities. For example, all of the original Inquisitors were given a pewter spike, which—after first being pounded through the body of a Feruchemist—gave the Inquisitor the ability to store up healing power. (Though they couldn't do so as quickly as a real Feruchemist, as per the law of Hemalurgic decay.) This, obviously, is where the Inquisitors got their infamous ability torecover from wounds quickly, and was also why they needed to rest so much.
Also, remember that wax pushes on earrings in Shadows of Self. Here's my little question to Peter about it
Possible SoS typo

Just one thing that struck me reading through the second time - in chapter 9, Steris mentions that Wax is pushing earrings off people, and someone's ring landed in a drink.

Should that be 'rings' both times, since you can't push on piercings (like earrings?)


[–]from PeterAhlstrom sent 3 months ago

Hmm. Maybe this is a hint!
Last edited by PhantomMonstrosity on Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mac
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:07 am
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Mac » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:24 pm

All the ORIGINAL Inquisitors... as in, the ones from a thousand years ago. Do we have any reason to suspect most them have have it these days? I know he talks about Inquisitors needing to rest... but how many of them do we see actually need to rest? Famously little is known about the Inquisitors, even within the various Cantons when Marsh first infiltrates.
PhantomMonstrosity
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:48 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by PhantomMonstrosity » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:27 pm

Mac wrote:All the ORIGINAL Inquisitors... as in, the ones from a thousand years ago. Do we have any reason to suspect most them have have it these days? I know he talks about Inquisitors needing to rest... but how many of them do we see actually need to rest? Famously little is known about the Inquisitors, even within the various Cantons when Marsh first infiltrates.
from Kar's POV in mistborn 1
He had been awake for too long. Living as an Inquisitor drained the body, and he had to rest often. His brethren were already shuffling from the room, heading toward their rest chambers, which lay intentionally close to the throne room.
They would sleep immediately; with the executions earlier in the day and the excitement of the night, they would be extremely fatigued.
PhantomMonstrosity
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:48 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by PhantomMonstrosity » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:32 pm

Sir Jerric wrote:1) The former. Despite my continued lack of solid evidence, I still prefer to think of Inquisitor vision as the Iron / Steel equivalent of piercing-tier Bronze. So ironsight is the way anyone with Iron sees, but the Inquisitors are better at it.
I think it's a savant thing, based on these quotes.

We should ask why Wax *can't* do that, actually.
http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation- ... er-twelve/
Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody—at least, nobody the heroes know—is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/commen ... ?context=3
Herowannabe ()

I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" Steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way—that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Brandon Sanderson

No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little. :)
Kadrok
Board Ruler
Board Ruler
Posts: 5234
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:47 am
Has thanked: 234 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Deader Threader

Post by Kadrok » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:46 pm

*INSIGNIFICANT BoM SPOILERS* (Like, it's only technically a spoiler)

Does anyone else feel like Brandon has no idea how to play a Lurcher? I'm reading BoM and I'm struck by the amount of significant Coinshots we're encountering... in comparison, we get a couple of Lurchers in the background using their metals in very simple ways like detection or juggling (super cool though).

It's like he can't think in the way that is necessary for being an effective Lurcher, he's too stuck in the straight forward way a Coinshot can think. I think you have to be smarter to be an effective Lurcher, to be honest.

How long did Pull last in AoL again?
Post Reply

Return to “General”