Duel recruitment: Shardbearer vs Scadrians -Draw-

For setting up duels and other Arena discussion.

Postby Kadrok » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:21 pm

Claincy wrote:Heh, nice. Though mine doesn't really contain my name. It more is my full name appropriately garbled ;)

Lord Voldemorte style? Cool. I'd do that, but my last name is more than 57% vowels, and I'm not sure what to do with that...
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Postby Claincy » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:53 am

Kadrok wrote:Lord Voldemorte style? Cool. I'd do that, but my last name is more than 57% vowels, and I'm not sure what to do with that...

Exactly lord voldemort style.

"I am lord Claincy Ffnord" is the full anagram ;)
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Postby Mac » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:48 pm

If you'd care for a rematch, I've got just the Keeper to send your Bearer back to Roshar. 3:D Ku ku ku ku...
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Postby Herowannabe » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:16 pm

I was also hoping to step in with a Mistborn vs Shardbearer match. :D
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Postby Claincy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:03 pm

Bring it on :)
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Postby Claincy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:07 pm

So, some thoughts:
-Shardblades absolutely slaughter melee opponents provided the bearer has a reasonable number of dice.
-Coinshots are as brokenly powerful as ever if they are able to keep their distance and deprive their opponents of any ranged weaponry ;)
-Shardplate is enormously helpful at the beginning. When undamaged it is a lot like being a thug with steel plate and tough skin with the added bonus that it cannot be manipulated with allomancy. however a thug who is badly wounded can still act with their full suit of dice while a shardbearer gets significantly weaker with each point of damage that overcomes their damage resistance. As a result I would say that when undamaged, shardplate has the advantage, but once it has taken some damage a properly kitted thug will be better off. The obvious exception to this is when fighting someone with a shardblade. In that case the shardplate is still probably better until it is nearly broken.
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Postby Mac » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:22 pm

I disagree in your assessment that coinshots are cheating at distance. It's true that it would have been difficult for you to close with him, but you could have chucked weights all the livelong day with your super-strength, and would have landed a lucky blow before too long. You'd only need two or three before the coinshot was down. The coinshot, however, had no viable way to attack you. If he could have had an infinite supply of those weights, he still had to get an insanely lucky throw before he would have gotten over your soak. Considering the odds, he would have run out of Steel before that happened.
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Postby Claincy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Mac wrote:I disagree in your assessment that coinshots are cheating at distance. It's true that it would have been difficult for you to close with him, but you could have chucked weights all the livelong day with your super-strength, and would have landed a lucky blow before too long. You'd only need two or three before the coinshot was down. The coinshot, however, had no viable way to attack you. If he could have had an infinite supply of those weights, he still had to get an insanely lucky throw before he would have gotten over your soak. Considering the odds, he would have run out of Steel before that happened.

I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say here. I never intended to imply that coinshots were "cheating". A coinshot with sufficient space to maneuver and the steelrunning stunt will be able to win against someone who doesn't have an effective (preferably non-metal) means of fighting at a range. That's just how the rules are, and really how they should be from a canonical standpoint.

In the particular case of Xhadar vs Ser at that point in the fight everything hinged on a ruling on
A: how far Xhadar could throw the weights with his damaged plate and
B: how wide the arena was and if Ser could circle around Xhadar without having to get closer to him
Depending on the rulings to those questions, that were never settled, the situation could have been ruled that Xhadar was literally unable to get close enough to Ser to attack him. If Ser didn't have to worry about defense he would have 9 dice each turn to attack with, using the weights (+2 damage) he would need a total of 2 nudges and a hit to deal damage, so the same probability as a called shot. Each successful hit would further increase his chances to hit and further reduce Xhadar's ability to defend himself. So in that situation Ser would certainly win given a little time.

If, on the other hand, Xhadar was able to throw a weight every turn, then yeah, the odds would definitely be with Xhadar. If Xhadar was only able to attack every second or third turn and needed to spend the intervening time moving two steps to get into range for the following turn things would be much more even.

Without any ruling between these different possibilities there was no real way to tell how it would have ended or continue with the fight. We spent literally 6+ pages debating what was or wasn't possible out of these alternatives without reaching any resolution :P This would be why in a normal campaign the narrator would have just made a ruling and moved on.
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Postby Mac » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:53 pm

Claincy wrote:I think you are misinterpreting what I was trying to say here. I never intended to imply that coinshots were "cheating".


Sorry, I was being inexact. I meant "brokenly powerful", I shouldn't have said cheating, I didn't mean it to imply an actual breaking of the rules. It's a shorthand my friends and I use, I sometimes forget not everyone has our nomenclature.

Claincy wrote:A coinshot with sufficient space to maneuver and the steelrunning stunt will be able to win against someone who doesn't have an effective (preferably non-metal) means of fighting at a range. That's just how the rules are, and really how they should be from a canonical standpoint.


Eeeeeh.... emphasis mine is where we disagree. A coinshot with sufficient space to manuever and the steelrunning stunt will be able to not lose. Winning is a completely different matter. His range is only Medium; surely we can all agree that someone wearing Plate, even slightly damaged as yours was but still granting a strength bonus, can throw farther than "Close". A coinshot would be able to stay far enough away from you to force a draw by ensuring neither of you hit each other, but if he gets close enough to shoot coins (or heavy weights) at you, he's close enough for you to hit back, and you'll have an enormous advantage when it comes to which of you will do damage.

Claincy wrote:If Ser didn't have to worry about defense


See above. This only works if you assume that the ruling would have been "you cannot throw a weight farther than three or four feet" which I think is an unreasonable assumption. But I will grant, a narrator might decide that this is plausible.

Also... even if Ser could attack you safely, he's got nine dice against your defensive 10 (if you've got no attack, you'll just defend). He'll have to not only beat someone he's got a statistical disadvantage against, but also do so while rolling at least 2 sixes. What was your Plate's health at by then? I'm gonna try to work out the math of how many times he'd have to hit you before he was statistically likely to bring you down to fewer than 10 defensive dice, and compare it to how long he could nurse flared steel.

This space reserved for math...

EDIT: Math not done yet, but here's what I've roughly got. The defender, rolling 10d6, has a slightly better than 50% chance of rolling a pair of 5's. In these circumstances, nothing Ser rolls means anything. Further, Ser only has a 47(ish)% chance of rolling at least two 6s. So, we've narrowed it down to a 1/4 chance that Ser gets the Nudges he needs when Xhadar has rolled anything less than the ultimate defense. Out of this 25% of the time, we now need to figure out the odds of Ser's remaining 7 dice managing to roll something which beats Xhadar's 10. Eyeballing it, this seems to already be a rather unlikely scenario, and the odds would have to be divided by 4 to account for the other circumstances I've already mentioned. I am trying to find more exact math, but I think you'll agree it brings the possibility of Ser running out of flared steel before he hits Xhadar often enough to start lowering the Shardbearer's dice pool into the realm of the plausible.

IN OTHER NEWS. Reading the scene where Dalinar and Elhokar and Adolin and Sadeas fight the Chasmfiend. If anything, the rules for Plate are still woefully underpowered. Though granted, most of it is from Dalinar's point of view, so perhaps they'd all be Stunts.

EDIT: Underlined is a better emphasis than bold.
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Postby Herowannabe » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:49 pm

Mac wrote:The defender, rolling 10d6, has a slightly better than 50% chance of rolling a pair of 5's. In these circumstances, nothing Ser rolls means anything.


Not so. If they both roll 5s, but Ser rolls more nudges, he hits. Plus, in those situations, it's more likely that he will actually inflict damage, since his nudges can be spent to increase damage.

PS: Sorry about making your math harder. :roll:
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