Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

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Mac
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:45 pm

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Does Ser have any vials left? There are no rules for doing things like this in the book, but if you had a vial of steel left, you might consider using the sediment. It's not a lot, but it might work. Pour your vial into your hand so the liquid washes away and you get a bit of steel dust. Add in some sand for volume. Like Vin did with that cloud of Pewter in Well of Ascension, aim it carefully and then Push it in Xhadar's face. Plate's one weakness is the eye-slit; it's normally the next thing to impossible to hit that, but it'd be easy with a traveling cloud of dust. Get a handful of dust and powder into his eyes, and he's suddenly blind.

All of this would work out for you in a simple narrative setting, but we'd have to make up the rules as we went along, and it would prolly be considered a Called Shot, difficult to make, and would simply give him a negative Circumstance, or at most a Serious Burden, and having him lose a single die isn't a big enough reward for wasting a turn and dwindling resources trying to make a probably-impossible shot.

Still, if this happened in the book, if Vin faced Adolin and had to stop him, wouldn't you cheer so hard if she did this?
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Claincy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:29 pm

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If it matters, I don't care if you give advice to Kad either :)

That a pretty cool idea, I dunno how practical it would or wouldn't be in this situation but one of allomancy's strongest advantages is that you can do all sorts of crazy weird stuff with it, and it makes me sad when players only use straight attacks.
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:04 pm

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Claincy wrote:... one of allomancy's strongest advantages is that you can do all sorts of crazy weird stuff with it, and it makes me sad when players only use straight attacks.
Sorry if I jumped the gun, I figured once I had the ref's blessing I could go ahead.

I agree with you but I see it as an inherent flaw of most RPGs. It's a balancing act. On the one hand, you might have a system with strict rules that define a variety of circumstances and would have a way to handle something like "I blow dust into his visor and blind him,"... but there's no way for the writers to imagine literally every possibility, so it only works if they happened to write the rule for exactly that. Or there's a system with fewer rules that let's you do stuff like this... but then we the players have to invent what actually happens every time here.

Honestly, I think sometimes there are things that will just never work in an RPG setting that would work in a book, the way a novel can be excellent but contain scenes difficult to translate onto the screen, or an action scene in a movie could look amazing, but be tedious and boring if you tried to simply write down everything that happened. For example, Vin's final fight with Zane. Narratively, it was awesome. It all worked out perfectly and it was very cool. If that were done from an RPG standpoint? Vin takes ALL OF THIS DAMAGE, Zane has barely been scratched, the one and only hit he took was from a tackling dog. Then, Vin comes up with a single tricky move and takes Zane down with a one-shot kill. Did that look awesome in a book? Hell yeah. If we did that in this scenario, would that be fair to you? You've been kicking our keisters from the first Beat. Right now you're barely scratched. If the rules decided that Ser's cloud of dust really did blind you, and you were unable to stop him while he ran up, held a coin to your eyeslit, and pushed it through your brain, killing you in a single blow... would that seem fair to you? That's pretty close to what Kaladin did to kill -REDACTED-, and in the book it was awesome. In a game, it's just unfair and mean.
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Claincy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:33 pm

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Mac wrote:Sorry if I jumped the gun, I figured once I had the ref's blessing I could go ahead.
Nah, you were perfectly fine. With Hero's blessing it wouldn't matter whether I agreed or not :P I was just trying to say that I had absolutely no problem with it anyway.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't disagree with you. In any system this problem exists, but especially in a system that allows for such a wide breadth of possibilities and emergent gameplay there is no way that every possibility can be catered for. This is part of why we have a narrator, so they can make a quick call on difficulty and effectiveness and keep the action moving. It does make things harder in player vs player though.

In this specific case I don't see Ser being able to do any significant permanent damage with such a move, but he certainly could blow steel dust in Xhadar's eyes which certainly could blind him for a round. I do not imagine that Ser could simply walk up and put a coin through his visor though, being blind doesn't preclude hearing or attacking and Ser would have to come into range of his blade, including a step, not to mention be in a rather specific arc to have a reliable shot, making that an extremely dangerous move. And there is nothing stopping Xhadar from covering said slit with his gauntlet while he blinks out the dust. That would still leave him unable to try to dodge or deflect other attacks effectively of course, or to throw a weight at Ser with any hope of connecting. (Difficulty 7 methinks ;) )
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Mac » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:05 pm

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Like I sorta-said, at the end of the day, Ser's only hope is a figurative silver bullet, and such a move is patently unfair to you. There isn't going to be a plausible option that gives Ser a shot at victory, a full Shardbearer is simply too powerful, offensively and defensively.
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Kadrok » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:01 am

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Claincy wrote:...it makes me sad when players only use straight attacks.
That's one reason I didn't give my Lurcher a shield or the Protege (a Mistborn) clips. I want to learn to use the powers and environment in novel ways, rather than playing out the same basic strategy again and again. Giving a Mistborn/Coinshot clips, or a Lurcher a shield invites effective, but kind of boring approaches to battles.
Mac wrote:Like I sorta-said, at the end of the day, Ser's only hope is a figurative silver bullet
Or some literal awesome die rolls. Or some kind of awesome strategy I haven't considered yet... like... hmmm... there were metal bars on the roof, right? Are they positioned such that Ser could get over one and push it out of the roof, such that it falls on his opponent? And if he rips enough out of the roof will we get a cave in? If the roof starts to collapse, Ser has far more maneuverability, and could far more easily dodge the falling rocks. Kehehehehe!
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Mac » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:10 am

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This is all the sorta stuff I just write fanfiction for. In an RPG, these ideas seem great... but then how do you work out how they work, mechanically? It's so much easier if you just think of something that would look cool, or even a terribly amusing way for your protagonist to try something and fail, or be blinded by his own way of thinking and get caught off-guard by something he had ignored, and then craft the entire scene as a work of literature.
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Herowannabe » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:50 am

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Re: RPG vs Literature.

Agreed. 100%. Another thing that works great in literature, but not so much in RPGs is when you build a scene to an astounding climax, with all the odds stacked against the hero, and then through an incredible surge of luck the Hero manages to succeed, despite all the odds (Vin's fight with Zane is a perfect example). Awesome in books or movies. In RPGs? That generally ends with the character getting a crappy roll and dying.

Which is actually one thing I really love about the character destiny mechanic in the MAG. It's built into the system that as a character reaches the climax of their own personal character-arc they actually become more awesome (via an abundance of free nudges). :D
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Mac » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:03 am

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So, what are we waiting on, again?
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Re: Match #1 Shardbearer vs. Coinshot and Thug

Post by Kadrok » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:30 pm

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Herowannabe wrote:Which is actually one thing I really love about the character destiny mechanic in the MAG. It's built into the system that as a character reaches the climax of their own personal character-arc they actually become more awesome (via an abundance of free nudges). :D
That actually sounds pretty kickass now that I think about it.
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