Match #2: Atium-burning Mistborn vs. Steelrunner

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Postby Kadrok » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:28 pm

Out of Character. Click to reveal.
Mac wrote:It didn't initially deal any damage until I added my Atium dice and got two nudes.
Lol, what kind of game are you playing?! Terry Pratchet's Wizards spend decades mastering the spell you've accomplished with a simple die roll.

I'll die in twelve more seconds when the last of my flared pewter runs out; I no longer even have the luxury of stalling a few precious more minutes by dropping my flare and simply burning Pewter, since that's not enough anymore.
RUN Kirk! Cheese it!

And I'm not sure I agree that this is proof that you're being taxed too much Health for your Steel. This isn't just a little bit here and there; you're tapping enormous quantities and playing around with huge forces. You're not just assisting yourself a little bit, you're ensuring that you deal large amounts of damage per turn, enough to be impressive even over my armor. I don't think it's at all inappropriate that you'd be suffering from it. You could easily avoid this damage by simply tapping only enough steel to give you an advantage, rather than the overwhelming force you're bringing to bear. I suppose I could be accused of bias, but look at the actual numbers. Calculate how fast you could be traveling for the amount of speed you're tapping. Look at your damage output and Outcomes. You're being a powerhouse right now. I think taking a bit of damage each time is entirely appropriate.
It's certainly contentious. Mayhaps we should ask Crafty for their views?
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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:35 pm

To make sure I'm up to speed, it's now the start of the fourth Beat, yes? Or the fifth, I've literally lost count. You've Declared that you're going to attack me with your cane; it is now for me to Declare, and then go ahead and attack.

We're about to run into an interesting question I have with how Defense Pools work.


Well, this experiment wasn't working. New tactic. Foreknowledge clearly didn't mean much, compared to inhuman speed.

So. Time to pin the fly down.

Keeping the dregs of his pewter flared, Sylvester added flared Steel. With a very slight shift to line up with Gonzo's about-to-movement, he shoved with all his might against the armor his opponent was wearing.

My pool is 5 for my flared steel, plus one for Reading Atium Shadows. I don't see Quick Reflexes helping me here. I'm going to try to "pin" Gonzalez up against the far wall, shoving myself backwards against a nearby pillar which I will brace against. I'll use all six dice, plus four for atium, in my attack.

Here's where we get into trickiness of defense. What would a successful defense mean for you? It's not narratively plausible for you to "dodge" my ability to push on your armor. Even if you could wriggle your way out of your armor, you presumably don't want me to be able to fling away your metalmind. And you shouldn't be able to spend steel charges to enhance whatever defense roll you make; no amount of physical speed will prevent you from being pushed. It's a pure matter of brute strength if you can brace yourself and resist being pushed. My roll is in OOC.


Out of Character. Click to reveal.
Mac rolled 10d6:
2, 3, 5, 3, 4, 2, 2, 5, 2, 3
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Yup, fourth beat.

---

So far as defense goes: yeah, it's a bit up in the air.

The MAG says it's a Physique Iron/Steel vs. Physique Contest, where success "sends the target sprawling." End of comments.

This is one of the House rules I wanted to discuss. As Hero has it

Steelpushing and ironPulling other characters
Steelpushes and Ironpulls against other characters is treated as a contest, not a conflict. The defender CAN use defense dice (as well as abilities that modify your defense pool such as fZinc and aElectrum) to resist the push/pull. The winner of the contest has control over the effects of the steelpush/ironpull, including who moves where, and has the privilege of spending nudges to deal damage or gain perks.

Currently used in: Futile Efforts.

As above but: If the targeted character wishes to resist the push/pull he must declare so as his action for the round.

Currently used in: Dying Light.


So for the further DL specification, I'd guess that I need to re-figure my dice pool and change my previous action. This opens up a can of worms in regards to my commitment to attack already, since technically it's not impossible yet. A painful way to read it is that Atium forces me to stay committed to my attack until it becomes impossible, and technically it isn't impossible yet. You could theoretically fail and leave me standing there.

My defense, if I can make one, would likely be to the tune of "grab something and hang on." So I might grab a pipe sticking out of a wall or a bit of rope hanging from the ceiling, or just hunker down a lot and try to shift my profile such that most of the force of your Push goes into the ground rather than pushing me back.

If I wanted to use fSteel to enhance any of this, I could imagine a plausible scenario of just being faster to do one of the above types of actions. Feel your Push, slide back a foot or two, and then grab something or lunge for my own pillar or the like and make it so that you're the one that goes flying.

--

Of course this is all dependent on whether I'm allowed to change my action at all, and it seems that Atium locks me into not doing so. If you concur, just count me as not opposing the roll and count your Nudges. Recall that you'll need 4 to get through the armor.

EDIT:

We might also want to chop off a dice or two for the fact that you're pushing on a 1/3-full metalmind

Source:
HEROWANNABE
How about [how hard it is to Steelpush] a metalmind? A feruchemy metalmind that is "full."

BRANDON SANDERSON
That is going to be middle of the realm. Generally easier than, for instance, a shardblade, which is going to be very hard.
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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:38 pm

Switching my OOC color to red, because as long as we're using new colors I might as well help people distinguish between our "voices" at a glance.

I'm not seeing losing a dice or two being justification for losing multiple dice. At worst, I see it as a negative condition. First, it's not a full metalmind; even if "full metalmind" were something that made steelpushes entirely impossible, it's now at best a third of that. We know size of an anchor matters from what Kelsier told Vin, and from what we see from her perspective throughout the books, and from something in the preview chapter of Shadows of Self; giving you the best benefit of the doubt, I've got a minimum of 2/3 of an entire suit of armor to push on, and I think that's enough. Also, "a suit of armor" is not one giant welded piece of metal, and there are many parts not touching your skin, like many of the screws and joints. In point of technical fact, in real life when one would wear armor like this there was a complete layer of padding between you and it because metal chafes like you wouldn't believe, but I had assumed you cut at least a few holes to allow yourself to touch it and use your metalmind. Regardless, there have to be large portions of the armor that aren't touching your skin, certainly more than enough for me to use as an anchor.

For the other topic, I think the Dying Lights rules are silly and punitive. There's absolutely no reason this defensive action should be any different than any other defensive action. Just use your pool per normal, though I'm still not sure how you recalculate a pool you've already spent; surely you should have to recalculate, halve it, and then take a penalty for how many dice you already spent, since they should have come from your new pool? Which is moot in your case since it would only mean a handful more or fewer charges spent, and you're not running out fast enough. ::fist shake::

Also, thank you for defining the stakes, I hadn't been sure how it would go. I thought that if you successfully defended it meant that you somehow didn't go flying at all, but it looks now like you're saying that now that I'm Pushing it's a given that we will fly away from each other. If you win the contest, you get to describe where we each end up. If I win, I get to describe it. Considering this, the ways you described using your speed to influence that seem very reasonable, and my previous objection to you using steel to defend is now withdrawn. Meaning I will lose; shucks.

Lastly, it took me a second to understand you. You're saying I will need four Nudges if I want to do any damage, not just to make the Push happen. Yes, I'm assuming I don't actually hurt you. I think, however, I would have been better served by doing this earlier and finding ways to attack you from range. Something to keep in mind next time my atium Mistborn fights a steelrunner.

EDIT: Oh Cultivation, that first color made my eyes bleed.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:01 pm

For the love of all things holy on this forum please make your voice a darker red! :o ( ;) )

Sure, I'll buy the "bigness" of the armor offsetting any "resistance" it should put up as a metalmind. It is something worth keeping in mind going forward, though.

So my intention was to attack you, meaning...


Out of Character. Click to reveal.
Okay, so that's 6 + 1 for Trait + 3 for Burdens (Serious, Serious, and Grave-1) for 10 natural dice total.
-EDIT: In my original pool.

I'll spend all my base dice (relying on our probably-should-be-changed "you can add 'extra dice' to 0" rule) on defense and tap 20 from the armor for +2 Outcome (and the movement, but we'll get to that).

Kurkistan rolled 10d6:
3, 4, 6, 5, 3, 5, 5, 5, 2, 4


7n1


Gonzalez felt himself begin to slide backwards, pushed by his armor. Tapping nearly a quarter of his remaining charges, he lunged for a nearby pillar, holding on for dear life against the push.

Sylverster was surprised at his target's resistance, and was pushed back himself instead, stumbling before he cut off his steel burn.

Out of Character. Click to reveal.
Since the Nudge is useless for damage, I'll use it instead to take away a DD from you; if you think it fair.


Gonzalez, seeing his chance and feeling a renewed burst of health and vigor from deep within him, lunged at the murderer, trying to finish this once and for all.

Out of Character. Click to reveal.
One roll to rule them all.

No dice left, so all charges all the time.

10 charges for dice. 15 for 3 Nudges and 10 for Outcome. Roll in next OOC.


Out of Character. Click to reveal.
Kurkistan rolled 10d6:
6, 4, 4, 3, 2, 6, 5, 6, 5, 1


6n6


And that's all she wrote. Good game.

Final stats:

Gonzalez:
-18 charges in armor, 14 in earring (the two metalminds can only be tapped one at a time, which is why it matters to keep track).
-Either 1 or 3 Health left, depending on whether we retcon out that Beat from round 1.
-All items left, all intact.
-Serious Physical Burden

Sylvester:
-6 seconds of Atium, (flared) Pewter left (only relevant metals here)
-[-10] Health
-All items (excepting metals) left, all intact
-2 Serious Physical Burdens, 1 Grave, 1 Mortal

I'll let you narrate the final sequence, as it's your character and this was your brainchild.

P.S. Holy Braize is Gonzalez lucky. I think he had 2 rolls out of 9 that weren't natural 5s?

P.P.S. Good idea to use different "voices", I just kind of have dibs on blue because of Futile Efforts. ;)
Last edited by Kurkistan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Kadrok » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:02 pm

Kurkistan wrote:-18 charges in armor, 14 in earring (the two metalminds can only be tapped one at a time, which is why it matters to keep track).
I always thought that was a dumb rule. What is it for, what reason could it have to exist, either narratively or in game terms? The game allows you to have an average sized metalmind as a "set of rings" but doesn't let you tap more than one of the same kind of metalmind at a time. Where is that rule written by the way?
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:07 pm

I don't think it makes sense narratively, flat-out. Both Wax and Wayne have two metalminds, one on each arm, and use them simultaneously by all accounts.

In game terms, I can't think of any reason off the top of my head, but that smacks of a patch-rule that was put in there after some exploit. Kadrok, you're our master of those, what would you do if you could tap multiple metalminds of the same metal? :P

Here's where it's written

Page 283: (Emphasis in original)
A Feruchemist may also tap any number of metalminds at once, though only one of each metal for any action or roll. Tapped charges are immediately used, even if the current action or roll fails
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Postby Kadrok » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:45 pm

Kurkistan wrote:...that smacks of a patch-rule that was put in there after some exploit. Kadrok, you're our master of those, what would you do if you could tap multiple metalminds of the same metal? :P
Oooh, a puzzle. The obvious answer is that it might be a means for Crafty to cap out the maximum possible charges tapped at once at 500 (the largest metalmind), but given that that would require a capped out Ferring with four perfect spikes of the same metal, it seems an unnecessary fix. Not to mention the confusing and similarly odd Hemalurgy rules for Feruchemists that forbid them from enhancing their Feruchemy with spikes (on page 289):
By contrast, spikes are much less useful to Feruchemists. When a Feruchemist gains a spike granting Feruchemy, he or she gains no benefit other than possible access to metalminds belonging to whomever the Feruchemy was stolen from. This is, in fact, the only way one Feruchemist can use the metalminds of another.
More importantly, LIES! We can access other metalminds with Aluminium! These rules are actually seemingly contradicted by Marsh, who has two gold spikes in his later incarnation (page 510), and if one of the spikes is the same spike from his earlier incarnation, we're to believe the second Gold spike he gained was only rating 2. But I digress... I'll have to give it some thought.
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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:46 pm

I've got an objection here... I thought we established that you aren't allowed to turn off my steel. So, while you get to control where you go and where I go, you can't change the fact that we're being pushed away from each other. Your attack is impossible, because you are neither within range of me, nor do you have the ability to get within range of me. As is clearly evidence, and as was obvious even beforehand, regardless of where we end up it was suicidal of me to stop Pushing on you, so I would never have done it.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:56 pm

Ah, sorry, I'd just done that for the sake of the narrative.

If you'd like to get crunchy about it, if your goal was to get away from me than I think it'd only be reasonable to allow pushing Gonzalez back 1 step while you are Pushing back 1 step in the other direction, all "for free".

Any other distance you gain is effort on your part (as you're right to expend, in this circumstance), so I think if you want that 3rd step you're taking a Circumstance and if you want a total of 4 steps separating us than it's going to cost you all your AD.

Either way, I tapped 30 "Outcome-oriented" charges of fSteel that beat (their benefits are measured in beats, as I checked before posting that write-up), so the first 20 granted me 2 free steps before Circumstance and the next 10 would grant 1 more. 4 steps gets me a Circumstance and a hit at you.

We can either add them together (which may be iffy/contentious, since they were tapped for different actions, but still within the same beat) or we could narrate it as Gonzalez using the first 20 to stay in-place/near as you tried to get away initially, and the next 10 to close the gap for the final shot.

If it really comes down to it, then we can still model it as the first 20 keeping Gonzalez in place (so you get 3 more steps away from him than you were at the beginning of the beat), the next 10 getting him 2 steps closer with a Circumstance (so to Close with Sylvester) and the attack being him throwing his knife at you.
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