Match #2: Atium-burning Mistborn vs. Steelrunner

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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:04 pm

I don't think you're getting my point... what I'm saying is, I never stop pushing with Steel. So you can't get closer to me, period. Now matter how many extra Steps you take via steel, there's a constant force pushing you back that you can't overcome. I'm not simply shoving you back and releasing, I'm forcing you away and pinning you.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:07 pm

Ah, you're right, it does seem that I misunderstood you, then. My apologies and I suppose this is one of those times when one of those "actual Narrators" would have been helpful.

In that case, I'm going to have to insist that you die. 3:D
-(Now, not 6 seconds from now)

If you want to hold down a strong, determined Ferring with the ability to pour more energy into his movements than normal (which is what fSteel does, to some extent), then you're going to have to strain your little -4 Health body.
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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:15 pm

Kurkistan wrote:If you want to hold down a strong, determined Ferring with the ability to pour more energy into his movements than normal (which is what fSteel does, to some extent), then you're going to have to strain your little -4 Health body.


...which is what pewter, especially Flared pewter, is for. Kelsier, burning pewter, was able to withstand the forces of Pushing a steel cage to pieces from the inside. I think it would be more than enough to pin down one normal guy.

I'm absolutely not conceding that just because you can move your arms faster that you in any way "move them with more energy." That would be feruchemical pewter, not steel. If you're telling me you're really moving your arm so fast within the armor on your forearm that you're simply bashing it with enough force to move pinned steel, then you're taking as much damage as you think I should be, and you don't have allomantic or feruchemical pewter to grant you the bodily might to deal with that damage.

But this seems unbalanced to me... I lost the pinning contest. I guess you could make the case that this is simply the penalty for wearing metal around someone with Iron or Steel? That you by default subject yourself to being pinned even on a failed contest? I guess that's why it costs more to get items that have the same stats but with the "no metal" property... I'm still not entirely sure I think this move should be allowed.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:23 pm

<bias>Still, if I was narrating I'd probably take into account that the flared Pewter is already keeping what remains of your body barely in one piece as it is...</bias>

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Well actually you see it's highly likely that the armor is accelerated along with his body rather than as a side-effect of his movment, so... :ugeek:

*Ahem*

That aside... hm. I still feel as if, in a tug of war or a shoving match, using fSteel from a dead standstill should still give you some benefit. Thinking on it, this may well be an archetypal condition where doing too much should result in strain/injury (as you're literally just yanking your body against something and hoping the speed pushes you over the edge).

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There is a discussion to be had about the nature of Steel/Iron pinning, I think. Perhaps the best way to model it failing would be for the Push to continue (and still affect the Allomancer), but for the victim to crawl/lunge/pull his way towards him anyway, perhaps using the environment for leverage.


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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:34 pm

Regardless, I'm either dead in six seconds, or dead now if you manage to kill me. If it makes you feel better to kill me, fine. You kill me. Congratulations. As the victor, feel free to write up the final write-up.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:39 pm

The goal (at least in principle, though I think we both got a little "in" to it) has never been to "win", but to explore the rules and learn for the sake of more serious play. This game has already provoked a round of questions/(hopefully-forthcoming)-responses over on the Crafty boards, and expanded both of our familiarity with the rules.

I don't want my character to end up killing yours directly because yours was just suddenly struck with apathy. Either we hash out how Steel/Iron-pinning should work and go from there or we say "let's leave it unresolved for now and revisit it later". We can just drop the match at that and say "eh he's dead in a few seconds anyway" if you want to.

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I'd thought you might like to do a nice big "you killed me, but I never touched your father" write-up or the like, since, by the "who narrates" system I'm responsible for, I've been monopolizing the fun in a match that was your idea, but otherwise we'll just leave it at what's written.
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Postby Mac » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:00 pm

You've sorta touched on a point for this. I learned all I was going to about atium pretty quickly. From the point on, I gained a new thing to dislike about how unbalanced Feruchemy is. Again, I suppose, the "balance" comes from the resource management. But sitting here being passively beaten upon was highly frustrating. It was bad enough rolling my attack, knowing the odds were significantly against me when it came to so much as landing a blow. At least I did have that slim hope, and at least I did get the minor participation of tossing those dice. But for most of the combat, on your turn, you would simply roll, and then inform me of what happened, because I don't even get to bother with my own defense.

I'm not against feruchemy being unbalanced and strong, it was the total helplessness that turned this combat from "not very fun" to flat-out frustrating. I was no longer a participant, I was merely a spectator. You declared what you wanted to do, and then (by the rules, I don't mean this to sound like something you did wrong) simply narrated "this is what happened" while I just sat back and watched my character die. It was like expecting to play a video game but instead just watching a movie of yourself get beaten up; there was no participation.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm saying that this is a fundamental flaw in the game. Any game, good bad or indifferent, must encourage participation. To say that when you face a feruchemist you will frequently find yourself in a position of literal non-participation... that's just the worst. In my mind, there's no greater sin a roleplaying game can commit than to force a character into a place where they simply are no longer participating.

Another note. Even if your metalmind itself could benefit from your own feruchemical speed, which I in no way concede, saying that you could use it to move forward and resist a force pushing you in one direction is in no way possible. If that were the case, you could say at any point, "My upwards velocity is currently zero. I'm going to use feruchemical steel to increase that to an upwards velocity of 25mph, and keep tapping steel to continue my upwards locomotion, regardless of gravity." Feruchemical steel does not do anything to allow you to ignore forces acting on your body. If you were capable of moving your arm, you could have done so very quickly. Since you're not capable of moving your arm, you aren't allowed to do so at any speed, no matter how much Steel you tap.

EDIT: Also, a minor point. While still unbeatle, your Outcomes were technically 6, not 7. The rules are clear that you can increase your Outcome by tapping charges, but you cannot increase any Outcome by more than 6. A totally pedantic point, I just wanted to mention in case it ever matters in a Feruchemy-versus-Feruchemy match someday.
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:27 pm


Your frustration here is perfectly understandable. I'd be a bit annoyed too if I were in your character's shoes.

New idea, actually: How about, in a Narrator-less situation, players just take turns Narrating no matter what?

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On the topic of fSteel and resisting force, I must still protest. It's not like Gonzalez is being held in the middle of the air with no traction: he has a wall and/or a floor to push off of, and a finite amount of force pushing against him. His arm isn't being pinned by an intractable vice, it's being pushed against very strongly by an outside force. If he can output enough force going the other way to offset the effects, than he should be able to.

I'll reiterate that, as I think on it, this is definitely a valid situation for "that guy should probably be taking damage about now...", though. That's what separates it from fPewter here.

Of course, though, our particular conflict likely comes down to whether fSteel is going to help him generate that force. Is such "dead-stop" use of a fSteel possible? I think we can both agree that he could push back using fSteel (at least for a bit) if he'd had a running start, but where I think he also benefits when starting from a standstill I think you're saying that he needs that head start.

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EDIT: I've yet to be on the receiving end of a Feruchemical beat-down, so perhaps don't have the right to comment, but it seems to me that such "I am naught but a puppet" situations are fairly rare, and on the whole you can see them coming and/or work in-narrative to avoid them.

If Sylvester had been your real character in a real game, you would have booked it out of there so fast that you'd leave an after-image, and a Narrator probably would have forgone the inanities of "steps" and allowed that flight > running for untouchable escapes.

If you'd been controlling Sylvester and still _really_ wanted to take Gonzalez down, then you'd have to manage it in-game such that you could deplete his reserves, or bring a hoard of Extras or bit players with you to wear him down. If you'd decided on a more hands-off, drawn-out campaign you could wage a weeks-long proxy war against him and wear down his metalminds (as well as, quite critically, justifying him not being able to recharge much during any Breathers).

EDIT: Ooh, a fun way to do it might be to try and ambush him/steel [sic] his armor in his sleep, if your character properly grasped that it was his main metalmind. :lol:

==

I think, then, that the one-sided nature of the fight was to some very strong degree an artifact of the fact that it was a one-off cage match and both characters had invisible little sadists stopping them from retreating (or, in Gonzalez's case, being a bit more conservative in his tapping).

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Well technically my result was 5: we'd then calculate the Outcome by doing Result_A - Result_B and then I'd tack on a +2 to it. But you're right that, in the edge cases (and especially regarding Complications) we have to look out and be sure that the Outcomes are within the set range.
Last edited by Kurkistan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Kadrok » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Ah, the Juggernaut dilemma! Unstoppable once he gets started, but can he really resist the push if he's starting from a stop?
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Postby Kurkistan » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:47 pm

And I just realized that I'm a subconscious genius and that Gonzalez has that earring for the specific purpose of having enough fSteel stored up to dash over/in to his armor at a moment's notice. ;)
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