Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Herowannabe » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:09 pm

Bowen: You did state, did you not, that Volencio was going to just hover around outside waiting, and Sig could take as much time as he wanted, and we could fast-forward to his re-engagement.
What I said was that Volencio wasn't planning on coming in the keep after Sig. That doesn't mean that Vo is necessarily going to sit in one spot and wait indefinitely for Sig to reappear. What I meant by fast forwarding was that if Sig was still just trying to find a way to the roof we could speed up the beats so that we didn't have to go through "okay this beat I search for stairs. This beat I'll climb the stairs. This beat I'll traverse the long corridor. This beat I'll look for a door or window leading to the roof. Etc."

Anyway, like I said, for the time being Volencio is trying to use steel to search for Sigurd. If he finds sig and sees him approaching a window he'll certainly do something about it. If he doesn't find him he'll probably keep searching. Either way I've got some action dice I can play around with and use for defense, unless Sig manages to sneak up to a window unnoticed. Which is why I proposed a steel vs wits contest- to see if Sig can be sneaky enough to avoid being detected by Vo.

As for the wooden baseballs- what exactly is your ruling on them?
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Mac » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:16 pm

Well we seem to have two issues.

Searching for Sig. What action could he take to obfuscate? From Kurk's narration, he doesn't seem to have considered the possibility that someone is searching for him.

However, steel, unless I'm mistaken, has a natural Medium range. meaning you can only scan the outer rooms. So, is Sig getting wood chunks in the inner rooms, or the outer ones? Or, you could move in to Close Range of the outer rooms, and search inside.

If he is somehow in your range, I see it as a Wits...2? Challenge for Vo, using Steel as a tool. (Is there a section in the book that would help me pick a difficulty out of thin air?) I don't see it as a Contest or Conflict because how would Sig possibly defend? Convince a bunch of people inside the keep to run around with one large and two small pieces of metal at a decent clip?

Hrm. This makes me think of something. Doesn't Wax just Push on the Coinshot round at one point to kill Push? So, the bullet doesn't have to be fired before it can be "activated" with a Steelpush...

On the other end, I've presented my reasons. Waiting to see what Kurk thinks, but right now I'm tempted to say that the "wooden chunks" will be a Tool allowing combat at Close range. Speed can be tapped for extra Nudges for damage, but I just don't see how it could be used to add die to the initial Attack roll, since no amount of speed is going to make them be flung any more accurately. I also think that since he's trying to use his own body essentially as a catapult, not just accommodating the power between his body and the floor but then transferring that to a missle weapon, his body has to feel that strain, and the previously stated rules on Nudges and damage apply.

However keep in mind I'm not really a "judge" and I'm not making "rulings," I'm just here to smooth out any bumps. If Kurk gets back and thinks there's reason the mechanics should work out a different way, I'm all ears.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Kurkistan » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:51 pm

I'd forgotten about Wax Pushing on the bullet. So it seems it needn't necessarily be fired before becoming susceptible to breakaway.

I'd still lean towards it not just falling apart at the first push, though; total speed/force and directionality would both matter, I think, and it's not like the bullets would just so happen to be directly pointing at Volencio from Sig's pocket.

---

I'd be fine with Mac's suggestion for the wood-chunks, I think. Sig also isn't making any particular attempt to hide from steel-finding, though that might change if Volencio spots him this time.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Mac » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:22 pm

Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
So... someone tell me if this is accurate.

Beat 1: Vol bobbed into the air, Sig didn't do much.
Beat 2: Vol moved and attacked Sig, missing. Sig tapped steel and shot back, landing a powerful hit.
Beat 3: Vol stole Lola. Sig, not tapping steel, ran inside.
Beat 4: Vol broke Lola. Sig... I feel like this is where I'm lost.

At this point I think we slip out of Beat time. Vol is now hovering... are you on the roof now, or hovering in the Keep at second-story level? Are you at Medium Range from someone in the outer rooms, or Close Range? Has Sig gathered chunks of wood yet? At what point is Vol searching? I'm confused here as to the order of events. Are there other pertinent events I am not recalling?

Also since you don't have a gun or allomantic steel, whatever happens to the bullets seems largely irrelevant now.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Kurkistan » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:50 pm

At this point I'd consider us to have essentially broken contact, so it may be accurate to say we're out of "beat time", though in game terms I'd guess that we're just lengthening the beats.

Sig's action Beat 4 was to find a way to get a vantage point to attack Volencio. I anticipated this taking multiple beats.

Then the next beat Volencio returned to the courtyard, and presumably Sig saw this at some point during his climb.

For that next beat, then, Sig came upon the idea of taking his hatchet and getting himself some chunks of wood to throw at Volencio. After acquiring those chunks, Sig would like to throw them at Volencio. Myself I'd call that two separate actions, the first over a long beat and the second in a more "normal" combat beat.

So I'd be fine if, beat 5, Volencio got an uncontested Challenge to figure out Sig's movements within the keep This while Sig makes his weapons from furniture or the like.

Beat 6, then, Sig intends to go up to a window or balcony and start chucking wood.
-Also, to address the "how can fSteel make you more accurate?" question, one potential solution (which we needn't necessarily implement) is for each attack to consist of more than one chunk of wood. So Sig would throw a quick volley of two or three rather than just one, aided by his physical speed.

--

Re: the bullets

Yeah, I guess it doesn't matter so much right now. Still, a large part of the point of these matches is to figure out how the rules apply in oddball situations; it's particularly useful to think of this stuff now, while we're in opposition, rather than be tempted to default into "whatever's most convenient for the PC's and/or their foes" later on if we encounter such questions in normal play. I'm glad to have discussed the issue, then, at the very least.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Herowannabe » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:29 pm

A few things real quick:

RE: bullets: yeah, it's my impression that it's the direction of and the strength of the steelpush that will cause the ceramic shell to break away. I see no reason why the bullets in Sig's pocket should be broken now.

Re: beats: yeah, I figured we switched to longer beats now. Kurk's breakdown works for me.

Re: steel-aided wood chucking: I was going to mention the same thing Kurk did. Just like one steelpush action can consist of a handful of coins or how one melee attack can consist of multiple jabs and swings, I see no reason why one wood chuck action couldn't consist of throwing multiple chunks of wood in rapid succession, especially when aided with fSteel. I would say that it would burn through Sig's supply of wood chunks pretty rapidly though.

EDIT:
So I was just rereading the past few posts to see what we were waiting on and I noticed this:

If he is somehow in your range, I see it as a Wits...2? Challenge for Vo, using Steel as a tool. (Is there a section in the book that would help me pick a difficulty out of thin air?) I don't see it as a Contest or Conflict because how would Sig possibly defend? Convince a bunch of people inside the keep to run around with one large and two small pieces of metal at a decent clip?

Page 145 has a quick and easy difficulty reference chart. The next page also has a similar Outcome chart, for determining if your success was "Godlike" or "Passable" or if you had a "Disastrous" failure.

Anyway, I guess we can go ahead and do Vol's search roll, and he has no problem moving a bit closer to the building to get more rooms in range.

Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
So Wits 3 with Steel as a tool. Difficulty 2, as per Mac's ruling.
Herowannabe rolled 4d6:
1, 6, 5, 1


EDIT: failure, but the nudge cancels out any complication that could have resulted from my failed search.


Volencio moves a little closer to the Keep and begins scanning his Steel lines. However, he finds himself unable to determine which of the moving lines might be the ones connected to Sigurd's metals.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Kurkistan » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:35 pm

@Hero

You'll want to de-color that last part of your post, since that was in-character.


Sigurd looks out the window while searching for the mistborn and sees... he sees...

0-0

Fighting tears out of his eyes, Sigurd spots the scoundrel floating around in the courtyard, lording over them all like insects. No need to find him anymore. The fool was right there.

Filled with grief, Sigurd finds the nearest wooden furniture, takes our his hatchet, and starts hacking with a fury. Lola might be... gone :cry: , but that didn't mean that rusting aristocrat was untouchable!

Let's have some fun with this one. So I'd say a Physique roll to see how many chunks I can reasonably get/carry effectively, just to avoid pulling a number out of thin air. If Mac would prefer pulling a number out of thin air, we can just go with that instead and ignore this roll.

I'd say... at base Sig gets 2 chunks, with every Outcome above 0 giving him 1 more and each Nudge counting for half a chunk, rounding down. So 3n3 would give 4 extra chunks for 6 total. Then let's say every... 2? fSteel tapped for dice is another chunk thrown. Mac, feel free to veto/line-item-veto any of this.

Physique 5 + 1 for Close Range Combat Specialty
Out Of Character: Click to revealShow
Kurkistan rolled 6d6:
6, 1, 1, 6, 6, 4


---

Additional concern: assuming that Sig declares last and acts first during the next beat when we actually fight, and that this woodcutting beat takes a not-unsubstantial amount of time before that, how are we going to deal with metal burning?

Sig's been keeping his Electrum off basically all the time because Instinctive Burning, but I'd imagine that Volencio, besides not burning Atium, is also not flaring Pewter. He might even have stopped burning it at all. So what happens when Sig bursts out of a window and starts chucking wood? If Volencio isn't burning Pewter at all then he has very little health to work with. If he's not flaring then he has a Burden I can target.

While I'm normally in favor of more loosey-goosey timing on when characters start/stop burning metals, the Instinctive Burning stunt would suggest that you can't just go "oh no I'm being attacked right now" and start burning your metal in response to get all of its benefits.

Instinctive Burning: You instinctively start burning Electrum in response to threats, gaining Defense Dice from Electrum whenever you’re attacked — even when you aren’t aware of the impending attack (e.g. when you’re ambushed or attacked in your sleep). This grants no extra benefit if you’re attacked while already burning Electrum.


I would guess, then, that maybe in conflicts you can only start(/stop?) burning metals when your own turn to act comes up. The problem with this is that it's kind of silly. Specifically because we all form dice pools before anyone acts. If Volencio's not burning Pewter before this round, then, then apparently he can't form a dice pool that includes Pewter dice.

The order of operations in conflicts is that first everyone declares and makes their dice pools, then everyone acts. So everyone starts burning/not-burning before anyone has acted, since Thugs would want to be burning their Pewter before they form their pools, and the like. But that seems to make Instinctive Burning less useful, since it says "even when you aren't aware...", establishing the ambush scenario as a subset of circumstances when the stunt is useful, not the entirety of them. Of course this may be muddled by the fact that Electrum is one of the few cases where you get the dice in response to action-phase events, rather than when you form your pool or the like.

Okay, so let's just assume Instinctive Burning is only for ambushes.

This still leaves us open to oddness next round. Volencio will declare first and has no idea where I am. So he's no reason to flare Pewter or burn Atium when he forms his pool for whatever action he takes. Then I'll declare, then I'll act. At what point would Volencio reasonably start burning metals in response to my actions here?
-Also, how ought we reasonably to do stealth, since Sig is attacking from cover? The book suggests a Wits vs. Wits Contest, I believe, so maybe that as a preamble to the attack?

Assuming Volencio's not completely blindsided, it still gets odd in other situations than this: what if Volencio has more action dice (which is possible)? So he'll be acting first, but have formed a pool and declared without burning his metals. Does he just start burning Atium before he attacks?

I'm not really sure on this and have to go AFK, so I'll just leave my disjointed thoughts here for the nonce.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Herowannabe » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:49 pm

Yeah, I have to confess I never really much liked that you can start/stop burning or tap/store/stop metalminds whenever you wish. I think it would be a lot cleaner to say that your metals/metalminds have to be declared when you declare your action (and can only be changed if you change your action and halve your dice pool). Plus it would help make feruchemists a little less overpowered, since they have to declare tapping charges ahead of time. It also makes things cleaner in the case of things like tapping Steel to move additional steps and Atium future-seeing.

Anyway, in this situation, your stealth bonus could range anywhere from a positive circumstance to a free attack with Volencio unable to defend, depending. A wits vs wits contest definitely seems in order, but figuring out what happens as a result of the contest will be tricky. I'm open to suggestions.

And yes, I just double checked, and I did declare that Volencio would stop flaring pewter. So assuming Sig gets the jump on him, you would be able to take your first action with Volencio not flaring pewter or burning Atium.

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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Kurkistan » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:25 pm

I'd be wary of too radical an overhaul of burning/tapping timing (even outside the context of this fight, to be clear). For now I think we just need to try and figure out the RAW/RAI; Crafty probably had it's own deep and gamely reasons for letting Feruchemists tap later than everyone else—for one it helps stop them from jumping ahead in the action order (which really is quite important) because they can't tap dice to increase their declaration-phase dice pool for that purpose. In fact, only fSteel can do it and in that case the dice you tap to go sooner don't give you real extra dice.

But that's an aside. For the sneaking, maybe do it by Outcome? 0 and I just attack you without you flaring Pewter, negative and you get some advantage, positive I get some advantage: "ties" going to Sig because he already starts out hidden. A high enough positive for me, then, would just be you being completely blindsided. A high enough positive for you would let you not only flare Pewter, but also burn atium to help with dodging the projectiles.
-Though that, of course, begs the question of how projectiles moving at less-than-bullet speeds interact with atium. So if Sig is immune to atium, as are the things he's interacting with, once the wood leaves his hand he'll no longer be able to affect it and it should resolve into just one shadow. But then again it'll be moving pretty fast so instead of a leisurely second or two worth of shadow to look at, you'll only get a fraction (likely a large fraction) of a second worth of it being out of hand but not impacting your face.
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Re: Match #3: Mistborn vs Steelectrum

Post by Mac » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:20 pm

A few thoughts... I might come back and edit this post to be more comprehensive when I'm not cross-eyed tired.

I'm a little fuzzy on Beat order... I somehow was under the impression that "volencio scans" and "sig makes it to the top floor" were the same Beat, meaning "Sig cuts up some wood" is a new Beat, giving Vol the chance to scan again. But you both seem to be on the same page as far as Beats are concerned, so I'll go back over it tomorrow and try to figure out where I found the extra Beat from.

Burning and when it happens: I see it happening concurrent with action. In most combat, people go into it knowing they're about to fight someone, and I think the assumption is that you turn it on just before the first round, and then it's on for good. If ambushed, I would make a Thug unable to turn on his pewter until he declared it as part of an action... though that's confusing, too. His initial dice pool, then, would be put in turn order as lower, but he'd actually get more dice.

As for the wording of the stunt, I see it as a distinction rather than a sub-set. Instead of, "With this stunt, an Oracle burns electrum instinctively under many circumstances, including when he doesn't see the attack coming," I read it as, "Any Oracle can burn electrum under normal circumstances; with this Stunt, you begin burning even if you don't see the attack coming." Considering the rest of the text of the stunt, it feels like a more natural read to me, and I don't see evidence to suggest that the existence of the stunt restrict the use of all other metals universally; surely if something so broad had been their intent, they would have said it more plainly.

Declaration/turn order/tapping charges works differently, I believe. Many powers flat-out state when to spend the charges, and for example, tapping pewter rather than burning pewter very clearly does not affect your turn order. However, given that feruchemy of any stripe is already insanely overpowered, I would have no objection to a houserule saying that you must declare any charges to be tapped as part of your action, in your declaration. (obviously any used in defense or as a reaction or under more unique circumstances would not fall under this ruling.)

Anyway. Me go sleep now. Words make better in morning.
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